دار بيبليون
Interview Afkar Crew with
Dr. Lwiis Saliba
“ The influence of Islamic Sufism on the western thinking is very clear”* 28/2/2005.
The Earth had been tried all the way concerning the war on the name of God. And the cosmos is getting brighter because of modernism that could not save anyone. Even modernism such as holocaust which makes life worrying and such no exactly way. Sufism world is just like a light in the darkness or a new paper of history. Sufism does not only make soul comfortable, but more than that, it makes all the human beings equal in front of God. “God needs not to be saved”, honesty of some Sufis said.
Due to that, the crew of Afkar bulletin would like to interview Dr. Lwiis Saliba, the Lebanese scholar, in the middle of his visit to Cairo at International Book Fair XXXIV. He is specialized in tasawuf and comparative religions study at Sorbonne University, Paris, and is also a lecturer at Haydarabad University, India. Its dissertation entitled ‘L’Hindouisme et son influence sur la pensée musulmane selon al-Bîrûnî’ describes the correlation between the Sufism of Hindus-India with Islam.
Afkar: After having read your books, we found that you concentrate on spiritualism. The spiritualism begins to take an important role in the west lately. Does it describe that there is a shock-culture in the western civilization which is based on existentialism and positivism, not spiritualism? What do you think?
LS: Every human being has different dimension of life, materialism, technology progress and so on. The western civilization is built on materialism. As example, a human being is like having an adult arm and baby legs. Why? Every human should grow normally; I mean all parts of his body have to grow normally together. It is what happened in some of western societies.
They grow up very fast in one side indeed, materialism. But they are less in spirituality. I think it is a big question. Why it was? I cannot say the cause is coming from their religion, because they had left it, the Christianity for instance. And now, as I lived in the West and I am still living there up till now, I see that they are looking for another dimension – that is spiritualism- as a balance on their epistemology and materialistic view today. Their spirituality dimension had lost as their materialism developed. The spirituality for the western society is just like an effort for balancing the blooming of material.
And actually it also happens in the eastern society like in Egypt, India etc. People in those countries just have concentrated in spirituality and- on the contrary of the western-society less in materiality. So, this balancing effort happens in the West and in the East with different dimension. It is what regrettably happens in reading western or eastern civilization. Both of them have excess and lacks. As Jesus says: “why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye”, (Luke 6/41). That unbalancing was actually found in the West and the East. The kind of problem between them is different indeed, but both of them have the same one. In this globalization era, it is time to focus on the problem, and together to solve and finish it. Eastern society should contribute with the West to solve their matter and vice versa.
Afkar: Spirituality is so close to “tasawuf” world. What is your opinion about spirituality and tasawuf as a bridge for dialogue among religions, or perhaps as dialogue among civilizations?
LS: From the beginning I focused in tasawuf, especially Islamic and Hinduism tasawuf. My PhD dissertation is entitled ‘The influence of Hinduism religion on Islam rationality’. Tasawuf is how to go to the source and contemplate. It is not intellectualism or materialism. This is the principle of Sufism since the period of al-Hallaj. Although, there are many religions, but they have the same way. As Sufism takes heart as its way, it always perceives the unity without considering any differences among the religions. As a Hindu Sufis said, “The universe is the unity of the diversity”. And it is also what Muslim Sufis said and so on another religion. Abu al-‘Ala al-Ma’arri said: “These schools of thought (Mazhab) are only hegemony on mass for particular elites”.إنما هذه المذاهب أسباب لجذب الدنيا إلى الرؤساء It means that some sects are on position and power, or definite quantity for power’s material dimension. It is contrary with Sufism that always considers everything with heart view.
If we see the phenomena that happen today, we find there is a clash of civilizations between East and West. The West is developed in its technology not in spirituality, and it is the opposite with the East that is increased in its spirituality but less in materiality. I am not sure that it is the clash of civilization era. If we consider more deeply, we find that we are equal as humans. The spirituality dimension, or more significantly we say that the Sufism dimension is like a trump that can bridge among different civilizations.
I agree with you that the tasawuf can be a project for the dialogue among religions and civilizations. As evidence in USA the most popular book in literature is Mathnawi written by Jalal al-Din al-Rumi, a great Sufi of Islam. It is true that Islam is unaccepted there because of terrorism assumption, but it is accepted in the other side-like what I have said before-, in Sufism. Because in many mystical treatises they found a view of comprehensive civilization which is not based on a certain thought (mazhab), even a definite religion. It proved that Sufism world is appropriate in making dialogue and peace among civilizations.
Afkar: We found so many western scholars who were influenced by Muslim Sufis such as Anne Marie Schimmel, Louis Massignon, CF Hatman, Pierre Lory, etc. Could you explain more clearly about Islamic Sufism influence in the western spirituality?
LS: I think it has been clear already and no more to be explained. As an example, I found that French theaters are so closed to Sufis world, like al-sama’ that presented Sufis life, the presentation of dhikr groups, saying Allah names (dzikr Allah) etc. Even Sufis behaviours we could find it there and I often get Jalal al-Din al-Rumi’s teachings like the Sufism dances in the West. How could it happen? Because the western society is looking for alternatives that can balance its entire life dimension, including Sufistic dimension. Sufistic world has variant perspectives and its figures have vast personalities, such as al-Hallaj and Ibn Arabi whose their books have been almost translated into every western language. It proves that Sufis world has become an integral part of the western civilization that could not be separated.
Afkar: You have just explained us about Hindus influences on Islamic society thought. Could you explain it more?
L.S: I saw that there is a similarity between Hinduism and Islamic Sufism, even it is not so easy to see. Because Islam has pretended to be a monotheism religion and in the other hand Hinduism is a polytheism one. So the question is how we can describe the Hindus influences on Islam with this principal different between them? I discussed it with philosophy study and I found one of Muslims intellectuals, Abu Raihan al-Bîrûnî (1048 AD) whose one of his books is Tahqîq mâ li al-Hind min Mâqûla, Maqbulatan fi al-Aql au Marzulah. Al-Bîrûnî, in my opinion, is one of the founding-fathers in study. From his biography, we found that he used to accompany King Mahmud al-Goznawi in his expansion to India and destroyed many of praying statues and their houses. To know what Hindus are, he learned their language, Sanskrit, and even translated their books such as Patanjali Yogasutra and Bhagavad Gita. It is the first effort in history and is amazing for many orientalists that in the ninetieth century there was someone who studied India by learning their language and translating their books.
More than that, after having learned Hinduism, Bîrûnî -in Tahqiq lil al-Hind, explained to Arabian that Hinduism in monotheist. He said: “Hindu trust that God is one” As if he told about Islamic belief in God. How could al- Bîrunî say that? He mapped the Hindu elites in one side and the common in the other one. The elites and the scholars believe in monotheism while the common are far from this belief. It was revolutionary perspective with the same approach, because al-Bîrunî saw Hindus objectively and comprehensively. We did not find subjective or cynical view to Hindus in his books, as we found it from our writers in this period that Hindus are polytheists. He recognized Hinduism deeply not only on its surface.
From this objective and tolerant view, the dialogue can be built up. Furthermore, al-B Bîrunî explained that in Yogasutra (the Holy book of Hindus), there was a teaching of wihdat al-wujûd and other sufistic teachings as we find in Islam. And he also said that there is a cultural and intellectual contact between Hindus and Islam in many dimensions.
I have lived in India and met with many Muslims and Hindus intellectuals. After having done my observation there, I found the holy place that is used together by Hindus and Muslims. Dargha-maqomat Auliya’ and Sufis [graveyard], those auliya’ are respected by all Hindus and Muslims. We also find Muslim intellectuals who teach Yoga. The relation among religious people is actually strong till now. Although, there are so many differences in belief, but I found that interaction among them (Muslims and Hindus in India) was running well.
It is a proof of the dialogue among civilization, not the clash of civilization. Let’s see another example, al-Hallaj. He had traveled to India, and we know that Hindus respected him as if he was one of their Auliya’ (Saints).
Zaehner, from his book ‘Hinduism and Sufism, Vedanta in Muslim dress’, talked about Abu Yazid al-Basthami. He said that Shathahât al – Bastami was influenced by Hindus thought. Abu Ali Sindi, a teacher of al-Bastami, was a Buddhist before. But I won’t discuss it deeply. The point is there is a strong influence between Hindus and Islamic Sufism.
And then, in Sufis view, Jalal al-Din Rumi, al-Hallaj, Shakara (Hindu Sufis) and Master Eckhart (Christian Sufis) consider that all religions are equal.
Afkar: And what do you think about wihdat al-adyân (unity of religions) concept that always dominates Sufism thought?
LS: The concept of wihdat al-adyân which came from al-Hallaj, Ibn ‘ Arabi, and other Sufis is one of the most interesting to be discussed. But, al-Hallaj explained this concept more transparently until it costed him his own life.
All what al-Hallaj said is not only as word, but he had passed it through Sufistic experiences, such as wihdat al-wujûd, he absolutely felt unification between him and his Creator. Then, what al-Hallaj said is not only what he said and what he taught, but the most valuable thing is his honesty till brought him to his death.
The basic difference between the Sufis examiner and the Sufis himself is that the Sufis lives in a Sufistic dimension, while the Sufis examiner just remarks it from outside, likely intellectual job. The point is, if we approach Sufism world only from outside, it is just like a shallow study. Due to that, in religion studies, we find what we call ‘inside religion approach’. So, if we want to recognize more about Islam and we just learn it from the outside, we will never understand what sujud, ruku’, and other religious activities mean. An examiner cannot understand such a Muslim understands.
I consider that the way to encounter among religions and civilizations is by learning it from the inside, for example, if we want to learn Islam we should be a Muslim even in a while and it is the same if we want to learn other religions. All of Sufis have preceded us long time ago, like Ramakrishna, a great Sufi of Hindus in 19th century. When he learned Islam, he had been a Muslim for the time being, lived in mosque and acted as a Muslim and so on. And he did the same way when he learned Christianity, Buddhism, Hinduism, etc. From that experience, he said that all religions basically are equal. That is what I mean learning religions from inside. All of what happens now is we learn religions from the boundaries that cannot be passed. Those boundaries are our identity, we are as a Muslim or as a Christian, and we cannot throw them ever after. We make classification of many kinds of religions in our study object, Hinduism or Islam. And we cannot throw away this perception in examining a particular religion.
Concerning ‘learning a religion from inside’, it does not mean that we have to change our faith, but we should feel their emotional, follow their way of thinking, and understand their life style. Because religion is the way of living. Learning religion is not like learning the theory of rain which can be understood from its theory. Whereas religion, if we do not follow the way of life of its followers, we will never understand it deeply.
Afkar: So attractive, as you said about objectivity concept. Consequently, what do you think about the development of oriental studies in the West today? Does the political-colonialism still dominate, or is there a change to a positive direction?
LS: Actually, orientalism had a tight relation with colonialism at the beginning of its appearance. But if we consider more and more, we find that every intellectual studies have a benefit background. Due to that, I cannot elude that the influence of colonialism to orientalists’ studies is possible.
Orientalists have given many contributions for oriental studies, especially in spreading Arabic Islamic manuscripts. We found some of those neither from Muslims nor their literature, but from the orientalists. For example, Louis Massignon had spent 40 years in researching al-Hallaj’s thought. So, we have not only considered orientalism background, but their contribution to oriental studies as well, especially Islamic studies.
* interviewed by Afkar crew, edited by Rizqi firmansyah and Munirul Ikhwan([1]).
[1] – Interview de la Revue indonésienne Afkar avec l’auteur le 15/02/2005.