دار بيبليون
Third interview with Tenzin Palmo by Dr Lwiis Saliba on Zoom August 11, 2021
Lwiis Saliba: Today we celebrate our 1st year of these lessons. This is the 52nd one, the 1st one having been held on August 12, 2020, shortly after the explosion in the port of Beirut on August 4, 2020. Dr. Jacques Vigne proposed to me to start meditation sessions on Zoom to help people under the shock of this terrible disaster. So we started these classes every Wednesday for one year. We had the joy to welcome Tenzin Palmo already twice, in April and June 2020, from his monastery in Dharamshala, India. These two interviews are already available on YouTube (Lwiis Saliba’s channel, free registration possible) and on Jacques Vigne’s websites.
We are very happy to welcome Tenzin Palmo for this third interview.
Lwiis Saliba: Jetsunma, your presence is a real blessing for us. We have chosen to invite you this August 12 on the occasion of the first year of our meetings. This will encourage us to continue our practice. The political and economic situation and life in general in Lebanon is unfortunately even worse than a year ago, no electricity, no gas, no medicines in the pharmacies, no petrol, the coronavirus is still there, no government, etc. In this very bad situation, meditation and introspection really become an urgent need. That’s why, Jetsunma, we invited you today. We have posted 130 videos on You Tube, including your first two interviews.
1) Jetsunma, what can you advise the people in this poor country after such a disaster in the last year, when the situation is getting worse?
TP: It’s very difficult to find the words… The suffering of people is really beyond imagination! However, with suffering comes strength. I also hope that they rely on their innate goodness, I hope that people can help each other and be in solidarity with each other in this very difficult situation that your country is going through. Everybody has to take care of each other, and help each other because if you don’t help each other, who will help you? And really, you know, this is the time to show your inner strength as a nation, not just as a member of a religion or an ethnic group, and show your unity as a human being. Those who are suffering need each other’s help and care to stay strong. That’s what it’s all about: sticking together and helping each other in these difficult times.
2) Thank you. Jetsunma! For our third interview, we have selected excerpts from your autobiographical book ‘A Hermitage in the Snow’ by Vicki Mackenzie. We’re going to talk a little bit more about your own life to be inspired by it. This is an exceptional biography. In this book you say, page 50, “My life is like a river, everything flows in the same direction”. What do you mean by that?
TP: I think what I meant to say is that I feel like a boat, a little boat going with the flow, even though I want to go in one direction, the flow of events and circumstances come in another direction, appear at the same time, but it’s as if, in a certain sense, the route is already planned. I don’t have much to say about where the boat is going, it’s just going along the river, where it has to go, that’s the meaning. In short, in many circumstances, it’s as if my life was already planned.
3) This boat…. Are you guiding it? Where is it going?
TP: Who knows where he’s going, He’s going where he needs to go, he’ll get there eventually, I just need to rest in the boat that’s taking me.
4) So you don’t make any choices, you don’t make any decisions about its direction?
TP: Basically no, things happen together as a result of different causes and situations, one thing leads to another, and here I am! I think I had a very strong karma from the past. Other people who don’t have this karma can make different choices and spread out, but for me personally, it’s like there’s something I have to do in this life, whether I want it or not, it has to happen, that’s why I feel carried away by the circumstances.
5) Do you know or feel this past life karma?
TP: Basically, I feel it, I don’t know it. I was born in London as a woman but I always felt that I was not in the right place when I was there, nor in the right body as a woman. Looking back I suppose I was a man in my previous life, my lama also said I was a man, now I am a woman, and our relationship was more difficult, so being a woman in this life was harder to integrate. In one sense, the past life is gone and no longer matters, but in another sense, it has a significant influence on who we are today.
6) Jetsunma, you were ordained a nun in 1964 at the age of 21. Wasn’t that a bit young to make such a decision, especially when Buddhism was not your original tradition?
TP: From childhood I wanted to be a nun, but as a nun I only had two kinds of images of this vocation, the Catholic nuns in prayer and the Japanese women in kimonos of all colours. That was my artistic tendency at the time… I wasn’t a Christian, but I really liked the idea of going into a cloistered Christian order so that I could get in and never get out. What was I going to do there? I didn’t have much of an idea, but I was always attracted to that way of life.
When I was 11 or 12, I remember my neighbours asking me, “You’re a big girl now, what do you want to do in life? I answered that I wanted to be a nun, they were rather surprised, but I knew it was true. They said that I would change my mind as I grew up, but I had a strong feeling that I wouldn’t. So I was in that logic, and I didn’t know what to do. So I was in that logic, and I thought that when I became a Buddhist, I would only talk to monks, and then I found out that there were also nuns in Buddhism. When I told my lama that I wanted to be a nun, he said, “Of course!” So, three weeks after meeting him I received my first ordination. It was obvious to him. I am very grateful to myself (smile), because at that age I already knew what I wanted to do. I didn’t let myself get caught up in other things, I went straight to the point, it was the right thing for me, this vocation is not for everyone.
7) Did you want to be a nun before being a Buddhist?
TP: Yes, because that was the only kind of nuns I knew. The Jews don’t have them, the only ones I had heard of were the Christian ones. But not being a Christian myself, I couldn’t imagine what I was going to do as a nun with them, what I was going to pray about… So when I became a Buddhist, I was very happy because the problem was solved.
8) So you discovered Buddhism in a second time?
TP: Yes, I became a Buddhist at 18.
9) Is there a big difference between Christian nuns and Buddhist nuns, at least in the organization of monastic life?
TP: There is not much difference, just as there are separate views between Christianity and Buddhism. However, when a Buddhist nun meets a Christian nun, there is an immediate sense of brotherhood, of commonality. We can have different ideas and different practices. There is a commonality between nuns of all religions, a sense of being beyond all dogmas, a unity in this “sisterhood”.
10) Jetsunma, you say on page 17 of your autobiography: My goal is to reach enlightenment as a woman, no matter how many lives it takes. Why this rigorous feminism, is being a woman more important than achieving enlightenment?
TP: Of course not, but it is often said that women cannot attain ‘Buddha State’, you have to be a man to do that. Go to any lama, he will say, “Very well, very well, but in the end you have to be reborn as a man…”. So often women in Buddhist culture pray to be reincarnated as a man. It is therefore important to show that a woman’s body is as important as a man’s body as far as enlightenment is concerned. There is no reason why a male body is more favorable to awakening. What is there in a woman’s body that would prevent her from being realized?
We can mention the example of Tara, who is related to compassion: she was a princess, a nun, and very advanced spiritually. And the monks said to her, “You will have to come back in a human body to attain enlightenment!” She replied, “No! I will come back in a woman’s body and attain enlightenment!” She succeeded! Therefore, from now on, when a lama tells me that you cannot attain awakening in a woman’s body, I tell him, “You have the goal of becoming Buddha, I aspire to become like Tara!” And they cannot say anything more! However, if it had been the case that the female body was favored over the male body, I would have wished to have a male body. The idea is to go through the other door…
11) Did the Buddha himself say anything to this effect in the Scriptures?
TP: To attain nirvana as an arahat, both men and women are capable. When the Buddha was asked if women could attain enlightenment, he replied, “Of course,” and they do! But the Buddha State is something beyond being an arahat. According to tradition, there will be a thousand Buddhas in this era, all of them men! The Buddha of the past is a man, the Buddha of the present is a man, the Maitreya Buddha is a man. Therefore, it was accepted that it was necessary to have a man’s body, that it was essential to reach the Buddha State, even if there are female Buddhists.
12) You say on page 93 that the problem is that there is a crucial lack of spiritual masters who are women, so nowadays it is more useful to be a woman. My question: is a woman more capable than a man of transmitting the dharma and the teaching to another woman?
TP: No, not necessarily, but when all the teachers are men, what implicit message can be given to women? Women understand women better than men, they know what they have to go through: when women transmit the Dharma, they give it in a way that is their own. Women appreciate a woman’s teaching and in fact many men do too, there are many male disciples of rare women who are lamas and they appreciate the way they teach.
Women teach in a different way than men, they have a different approach, it completes the situation, otherwise you only listen to the voice of men and you don’t have women’s voices. Especially in the West, the majority of participants in teachings are women. In an auditorium two thirds of the audience are women, but you have only one man at the microphone. Why is that? To balance this point of view, it is not a matter of saying that we don’t want men. It’s just saying that women should be represented. Why not? They are just as intelligent, just as educated. You can realize as a man that women can speak up!
13) Do you think a woman can understand another woman better than a man?
TP: They have more empathy, because you know a man’s body has man problems and a woman’s body has woman problems. Psychologically we are different and naturally women are more likely to understand where women need to go than a man can. Nevertheless, you can have a male or female teacher, there is not one that is better than the other, they are just two sides of the same coin.
14) The main problem is that in all religions today, men say what women should do, without knowing the true nature of women!
TP: Yes, you are preaching to the choir! (Laughter) We all know that!
15) In Islam, Judaism and Christianity, it is only men who teach women how to behave, how to do good, but without knowing the true nature of women to know what is good for them or not…
TP: Yes, that’s why things have to change, that’s why we need to have women’s voices now, because it completes the view of the situation. It has been rather one-sided until now. So it’s good, it’s not that we have to give less importance to men but rather that they have to leave more space for different kinds of energies.
16) People ask: Is what Tenzin Palmo teaches and demands for women in Buddhism part of the current global feminist movement?
TP: As the Dalai Lama says: if it means that women have the same rights and opportunities as men, then I am a feminist. If the Dalai Lama can be a feminist, why can’t I?
17) You mention the Dalai Lama. In your first interview with him, he addressed you as “Anila”. This Tibetan term is only used between two hermits, even the translator was surprised by this term, as you say on page 67 of your book. Do you think the Dalai Lama knew that you would become a hermit one day, did he have this intuition? Why did he use that term?
TP: Actually, it was more than that: what His Holiness said was, “Oh Anila! tugong gompel!” (Anila, of course, is a nun, that’s the Tibetan term for addressing a nun). At that time I was not a nun it was a week before I met my Lama and a month before I became a nun. I had long hair and was wearing street clothes. I was asked if the practice was good. When two hermits meet in Tibet, instead of saying, “May your health be good,” they say, “May your practice be good”. So the translator was very surprised, why are they talking to this young laywoman? His Holiness must have sensed something because it was very strange to say that in this context. The translator looked at us strangely and wondered why he was saying that. It was clear that His Holiness had sensed something intuitively, but he did not explain it to me.
18) Since that time, what is your relationship with His Holiness？
TP: We see each other, of course, from time to time and when he sees me he says, “Oh, my old friend!” Because we are old friends, it takes us back to 1964: at that time he was very young and very handsome. He was especially full of affection after my long retirement. When I went to see him, we hugged each other and had long discussions. He is obviously very supportive of the nuns and practitioners, I have met him on many occasions of course, he is an extraordinary man. In fact, the Tibetans are very lucky to have him!
19) Does he always follow your activities and is he always in contact with you?
TP: He knows that we have a monastery. Every time he sees me he greets me, sometimes he hugs me! He is very open to everything that happens in his community.
20) When you showed your picture as a nun to your master Sakya. He told you that you looked like the Virgin Mary (page 117). My question is: what remains of Tenzin Palmo’s Christian origins as a Buddhist today?
TP: Actually, it’s because at that time I had a hairstyle like the Virgin Mary in the Renaissance paintings…I’ve never really been a Christian but when I was a child I went to church because I liked the rituals, but I never believed in a creator God or in the last judgment
I have always believed, since I was a child, that we were internally perfect and that we had to return again and again until we discovered our inner perfection. I knew nothing about original sin. I didn’t know that we had only one life and that we would be judged, I thought we would have to come back again and again. Basically, I always believed the opposite of what Christians believed. I always believed in karma, nobody taught me, I always knew. When I asked my mother what she thought about it, she said it made sense to her - and it made sense to me.
Finally, my question was always: “What is perfection? What is it? And how do we achieve it?” And that was always my questioning until I went to a Lama when I was 18. Of course I had to go to school where I learned a little bit of religion, but it was not something that influenced my thinking. I didn’t think like that at all, and today it’s not something I carry with me. Some people, especially Catholics, remain Catholic in their hearts, but that was not my way of thinking at all.
21) What have you kept from your Christian beliefs?
TP: I think Jesus was a great Bodhisattva, I think he was very misunderstood and lost in dogma, but beyond that, I don’t really understand the belief of Christians. The wise, good, generous side, all religions aspire to that! What religion does not say to be good, kind and generous? Whether people actually are is another matter, but it certainly should be recommended. I can’t really say I’ve been influenced by Christianity, and besides, today in England, where has Christianity gone?
22) Where do you think it is?
TP: Where is it? It has become more of a social order. When I was 11 years old, in school, we were asked what religion we belonged to, and when it was my turn, I said I didn’t know. I was actually agnostic but I didn’t know that term. They said ‘oh’! And they put CE, Church of England, which means Anglican. It’s just that: if you’re a Catholic, you know you’re a Catholic, if you’re a Jew, you know you’re a Jew, but if you don’t know who you are, you’re an Anglican!
23) You say that after several situations of lack of money (page 130), you said to yourself, “If I take refuge in the Buddha, the Dharma and the Sangha, as I did at the time of ordination, and if I really practice, this question of finances should not be a problem, and since then these problems have ceased to disturb you.
Is this advice for people who are not monks and who live in the world? Not to worry about money?
TP: Even Jesus said you don’t have to worry about the next day, what you’re going to eat or wear, because your Father knows very well what you need. So it’s also in the Christian understanding not to worry about daily needs. Indeed, if one has faith, one way or another they will be met. Of course, the more responsibility people have, the more they have to take care of themselves and others. In summary, the message is not to be too attached to possessions and responsibilities, not to cling to them, not to make them matters of major importance in our lives because when we die, we leave everything behind anyway. We have to see the faith inside ourselves, being sure that we are sincere and that we have a true spiritual aspiration, and there the whole universe will come to take care of us. Nevertheless, it is obvious that in family life one has responsibilities in relation to children and education, etc., but there should be no ambitions in life, such as having a big house, cars, being as comfortable as possible, accumulating, etc. However, if someone is a monk or nun, or has renounced the world, he should have confidence that if he has a real practice, and then somehow he will be taken care of.
I’m nearly 80 years old now, and I’ve never lacked for anything to wear or eat! When you need something extra, the extra shows up.
24) You are in charge of a large monastery. Are there no money problems?
TP: I deal with money without worrying about it, I mean in my heart I feel that as long as we need the necessary funds, they will always come; they have always come and when we need extra for something else the extra spontaneously comes too, it’s just like that: if you really believe in it, things manifest.
25) You talk about the importance of hatha yoga when you were leading a hermit life. You say that yoga helped you considerably to neutralize all the tensions of sitting meditation and the associated problems. Do you think hatha yoga is essential for a meditator, and what do you recommend?
TP: Yes, it’s clear that if you spend the whole day sitting still, it’s important to do exercises: our nuns here do yoga every day and sometimes ‘tai chi’. In my case when I lived in the cave, the best exercise I could do was ‘asanas’ because it didn’t require much space. With hatha-yoga, we stretch the body from head to toe, that is to say, all parts of the body are used. As we know, hatha-yoga is designed to bring energy back into the body, prana, so that we are ready for sitting meditation. The goal is not to have a nice body. So you can sit for a long time without any pain. So it goes very well with meditation. It is also a mindfulness practice. You don’t do fast movements, but slow ones, accompanied by attentive breathing. In itself it is a kind of meditation, which is why hatha yoga is such a valuable practice.
26) So you think that hatha yoga is an integral part of sadhana? And did the Buddha himself do any exercises?
TP: At the time of the Buddha, people went everywhere on foot, so they probably benefited from good physical activity. In Tibetan vajrayâna, we also have physical yoga practices, it’s a little bit different from hatha-yoga, but these practices also harmonize, at the physical and pranic level, the right and left channels, so that the energy can flow freely in the central axis. So it’s a real advantage for meditation.
27) Are you still practicing Hata Yoga?
TP: Not much, I’m very lazy and I hate exercise! (With a smile) I used to do it when I was in my cave because I knew that if I didn’t do it, my body would have problems, so I was very disciplined. However, today I am very nonchalant and just walk…I’m sorry about that…I’m not a good advertiser about it.
28) Do you think there is an age limit for hatha yoga and postures?
TP: No, you can start when you’re a little kid until you’re a hundred years old and you feel like you’re 16. I mean I have one hundred percent confidence in the benefits of hatha yoga exercises, it doesn’t mean I do them, but I believe in them and I know I should do them (Laughs)!
29) Do the nuns in your monastery practice it?
TP: Yes they do, they do half an hour of hatha yoga a day.
30) You say in your book, about your mother, that she said before she died that she would like to be reincarnated as your mother, so that she would be able to help you follow your spiritual path. How did you feel when you heard this wish from your mother before she died?
TP: You have to know that my mother and I have always had a very strong karmic connection in past lives. I think that was the only reason I was born in East London, I can’t think of any other explanation (laughs). Also, she always looked to me as someone who could guide her on the spiritual path. For example, when I was 15, I started hatha yoga and became a vegetarian. Then she also started yoga and became a vegetarian… When I became a Buddhist a little later, she also became a Buddhist. When I had to go to India to find a spiritual master, she never said to me “Oh no, don’t do that, you can’t leave your poor mother alone! ….”.
She has always been very supportive, even coming to India for a year to meet my lamas. She never created any psychological problem to make me feel guilty. I needed to live my own life and she supported me in this project. So I have no doubt that we will meet again in a future life… I don’t know if she will be my mother, but we have very strong karmic connections from past lives and we will meet again.
31) Do you think you will be born here again, Jetsunma?
TP: I don’t know, or how… I could also be her mother eventually, but in any case I’m sure we’ll see each other again, that’s what she wanted and that’s what I want too.
32) You say that you were quite cold to your mother and you are sad about it now. You were quite critical of her, and you regret it now (page 155). Why and in what sense were you so critical of her?
TP: Although my mother understood my goals in life, in her heart she would have wanted me to remain a nice, cute girl, with nice clothes, with boyfriends, doing what very young girls did… I felt very out of step with those wishes. Plus, I was away for a long time and lived very independently for 11 or 12 years. When I came back to England for a relatively short time, I was a nun and I was living on my own, also in a traditional society, where you didn’t express yourself with big hugs or too much affection, I was just like that, quite austere. In fact, in India we don’t get too close to people physically, it’s not in the culture there. I knew she wanted to hug me, but I wasn’t the kind of person who wanted a very close relationship. Also, I wasn’t interested in television or anything like that when I came back in 1973 or ’74. We didn’t have much in common and I was pretty cold because of that too, I disapproved of his interests in television or that sort of thing. I really regret that. I shouldn’t have acted like that, but that was my inner state at the time… Nevertheless, she accepted and she understood: she never wanted to make me what I wasn’t. Today I would have been more relaxed and affectionate, but that is no longer necessary since she left us a little after her 80th birthday.
33) Jesutna, what karmic relationship do we each have with our mothers? Do we choose our mothers?
TP: Unless we die with full consciousness, which is very rare, we do not choose our rebirth. It is a product of our karma and certain causes and conditions that make us reborn in a given place. We do not have the ability to choose ourselves. Otherwise, of course, everyone would choose a wealthy environment with good people, but most individuals do not experience such a situation. So we are reborn according to our actions in past lives. It is said that when we are reincarnated, if we are to be reborn as a boy, we will be attracted to the mother and if we are to be reborn as a girl, we will be attracted to the father, which is quite Freudian!
We don’t have much choice, we go where our karma takes us.
34) So we can say that we are selected for our parents according to our actions and karma?
TP: Yes, the causes and conditions we have created send us to such and such parents. You can’t say, “Oh, I want these parents over there”.
35) And do you think we can do anything for our parents when they are gone?
TP: Yes of course! You can pray, send them positive thoughts, and their consciousness will rise as a result, instead of falling. Schematically, the experience we have later on will be the result of how we leave this life now. It is what is essentially in our minds, and our level of consciousness, that will determine our next existence.
Here and now we have control over what we think, what we say, what we do. That’s what we have to pay attention to.
36) But how can we help them after death?
TP: I have already said that you can make prayers and offerings, do charitable works on their behalf and offer the merits that come from that to help them. But in general, even with all that, the help will depend on themselves, on how they left this life. For example, if they were very bad people, it will be very difficult to help them. On the other hand, if they were very good people, they will not really need your help, because they will have already helped themselves.
37) (Laughter) So in both cases, they don’t need help!
TP: We must use this time of life to improve ourselves, because once we die, we receive the results back. Now is the time when we plant seeds. If we water them and take care of them, they will grow properly. If we sow poisonous seeds, we will get poison.
38) Can someone who has achieved help their parents in a better way?
TP: Sometimes, if they are truly realized beings, they can, because their prayers have more effect. Compared to ordinary people like us, we just do the best we can. That’s why people ask lamas to do prayers. They assume that they have achieved a very high level of credibility compared to ordinary people.
39) You said “Why are you still looking for happiness in samsara? I understood samsara is dukkha, the suffering fundamentally inhering to life. It is normal that I am sick, because it is the nature of samsara. There is nothing to worry about. If it is ok, it is ok. If it is not fine, it is also fine.” (p.107)
My question: Is it a matter of taking things as they come without any resistance or rather trying to change the situation when it is in our disadvantage?
TP: Again, this is a question of acceptance. If we can accept things when they come, then, inwardly, we are relaxed because there is no resistance. But it doesn’t mean that we cannot change the situation when possible. If we are sitting for a long time and get cramped, then obviously it is a sensible thing to move. So, the point is that while we are suffering physically, we don’t need to also suffer mentally through our resistance or our resentment against pain. It is the resistance and the resentment which create the suffering, much more than the actual physical circumstances. If we can change something and make it better, then we change it and make it better. But if we can’t, then, so what?
It comes from the fact that at that time in my life and practice, there were a lot of problems and I was sitting around thinking “Oh, this is too difficult”. Then I realized that it’s alright if things are difficult. Why do we resent things and do we think that things should always go the way ‘I’ want them to go, and be comfortable the way ‘I’ want them to be comfortable? Indeed, this is not the nature of life. So, if we can accept that when things are nice, that’s nice, and when things are not so nice, that’s ok too, then, there is no problem. And we have no sense of open fear, always “Is it going to go right or not going to go right?”? It’s only our ego deciding if it is going to go right or wrong.
40) So the first step is, according to you, not to resist?
TP: Yes, not to resent it. It is the resistance and the resentment which cause the suffering. If we accept things how they are, and if it is a difficult situation and there is a solution, then that’s fine. If there is no solution, then that’s fine too. What can we do?
We can accept everything. Often, the difficulties in life are our greatest opportunities to learn and to grow up, and to stop wanting that everything be nice and comfortable, as if we were pets. That’s not what life is about, it’s not just about being comfortable and having everything go the way the ego thinks it should go. We don’t learn anything from that. Isn’t it?
41) You said about your master, Jetsunma, “the only thing I could do to really pay the debt of gratitude I owe to my master was to practice, to practice relentlessly” (p. 164).
My question: Is practice the only action of gratitude? What about those who worship their master?
TP: Basically, the best way to worship is to offer the fruits of one’s practice and of one’s understanding. In Buddhism, the teacher is there to guide and instruct so the student may walk the path with confidence. Milarepa, the great yogi, didn’t just sit and worship Marpa by his very sitting at his feet, like a devoted dog. He took the instructions that Marpa gave, and then went away and meditated alone, for many years, in a cave. He made a call out with devotion from afar to his guru, but he never actually met Marpa again in person. What he gave to the guru was the devotion of his practice, and that was what Marpa wanted.
So always, in Buddhism, it is not enough to have bhakti; you also have to put the instructions of the guru into your own practice, and become the guru. Equal with the guru, through your own practice. Then you have repaid his kindness.
42) Bhakti in itself, or the guru, has no role, no effect?
TP: Well, it’s ok. But I know many bhaktas as well who are awful people. Because really that genuine bhakti hasn’t gone down into their heart. It hasn’t transformed them. The best way to transform is by following the guru’s instructions. Often the guru gives instructions but people don’t hear them. They just feel blessed by sitting at their feet but that’s not enough. Because the ego can get really blotted by just sitting there, feeling devoted, while they are not using this situation to really transform. This happens in ashrams when the guru dies and there is all this inter-fighting. Where has the devotion gone?
43) Does bhakti have some place in Buddhism?
TP: Well, in Vajrayana, of course we should have devotion to the guru, but our genuine devotion to him is shown not just in making offerings, or in our feeling of devotion, but in embodying actually the teachings that he has taught. Any guru wants to see his disciples transform. Otherwise, what’s the point? Just sitting there… if the master is not changing something very deep in your mind, and teaching you to have a genuine experience of the nature of the mind, then what’s the point?
People can get really high on devotion. We have to be careful. It can be a big high like taking LSD or something. And then they want that fix, they want that high. But that’s not wisdom.
44) You said that “the notion of the teacher and the spiritual friend (kalyana-mitra), with the Buddha himself indicated, is more adapted to the modern world and the present West, than the Vajrayana tantric guru. Also, Arnaud Desjardins, a French master, went in that direction and has published a book called “Spiritual friend”. Can you elaborate more on this field?
TP: In the Vajrayana, the tantric path, the guru is seen as supreme and unquestioned master, as in Hinduism. So, the student is supposed to develop what is called pure perception, so that we never see any faults, and regards the master as a Buddha. So, the student surrenders all their judgement. No judging, just seeing perfection.
So, if, (and it is a big IF)… IF the guru is actually worthy of such adulation, then, that can be indeed a skilful mean to invoke those blessings, because we are completely open and invoking those blessings. But the problem arises, not just in Buddhism but also in Hindu and yogic circles, everywhere… the problem arises when the guru is not so perfect, and mainly uses his position to exploit the students. So, the power and the control are all in the hands of the guru. The student is not allowed to even question what is going on. We’ve seen many instances nowadays of abuse of this power, in Buddhist and Hindu, yogic circles.
So obviously, it is very dangerous. If the guru is what he’s supposed to be, then that’s wonderful. But how can we know? This is the problem.
In the Mahayana texts of Buddhism, the example is given of the kalyana-mitra, which means “the good spiritual, kalyana, friend, mitra” who guides and instructs, but is not considered as omniscient and all powerful. The teacher is deeply respected for his knowledge but is not obeyed blindly. So, therefore we can have many kalyana-mitras along the way, quite many teachers. And somehow, in this modern age, for most people (not for everybody), this seems a more sensible relationship because it avoids the dangers of this total submission. We might indeed be submitting to someone who is not worthy of that submission and will abuse it.
Nowadays, this is of course a very controversial subject, and a number of books are being written on the guru principle and the dangers, as well as the great benefits, of this total devotion and submission to a guru. It all depends on the guru, much more than on the students. But how do you know? You don’t see the guru, you only see him there, you don’t have this personal connexion, and you don’t know what’s going on behind the scenes.
This is why in many ways it disappoints. And until one has a total certainty, treating the teacher as a kalyana-mitra rather than a guru is probably more sensible.
45) You define humour as the seventh paramita. Could you give us more details, so that the listeners and readers of this teaching are well motivated to practice it from moment to moment?
TP: I say that a sense of humour is the seventh paramita or the seventh spiritual quality on the path, because one of the problems of newcomers on the spiritual path is that we tend to take ourselves too seriously. Then, it all becomes too intense, and we become all very critical of both ourselves and of others. So, therefore, it is important to laugh enough in life, to have a sense of humour about ourselves and about the whole situation. Don’t take it too seriously. That doesn’t mean that we are not sincere, but we shouldn’t be too serious about the whole thing. We should keep a sense of proportion because otherwise, the ego takes over. And the ego is a very stern task master. And it all becomes too intense, and just too heavy, too serious. So, laugh enough. Lamas love to laugh. I think this is the sign of a good guru. They love to laugh and are not too rigid.
46) The problem is that, to laugh we should be happy, and we are not always happy…
TP: Well, the more you laugh, the happier you will be. It helps to release a lot of this inner critic. People are not happy because they are so critical and the ego is so much in control. But if you laugh, then, where will the ego have to hide?
47) Maybe it is a good advice for Lebanon, especially in this terrible and horrible situation. People are not laughing, they are always criticising, and always sad about such a predicament.
TP: When people go to see, for example, His Holiness the Dalai Lama, from all over the world, like people from Lebanon and so on, and tell him all their troubles, their worries, they all have a good cry, and His Holiness also has a good cry because he empathises with their suffering and he really feels it, and they all sit there, crying away. His Holiness starts telling them some stories, and making some kind of humorous observation, then, the next thing is that everybody is laughing. And they come out all smiling. They all come in with tears and go out with big smiles. Because it’s like if he takes all their suffering on himself but he doesn’t keep it there, like a big heavy rock. Through his compassion, he takes on their suffering, but through his wisdom, he’s able to release it. And this relief comes from a laughter that originates through his belly and releases this suffering from them. It’s important because, otherwise, you end up burdened down and are not able to even see clearly anymore. It doesn’t help to be in that state of mind.
48) How to be happy and to laugh when we are with people who are all sad and always in bad situation?
TP: This is what His Holiness does. He takes all their suffering and sadness and he transforms them for them. This is what great bodhisattva will do. A bodhisattva will empathise totally and take the suffering and feel the suffering, but he won’t stick with the suffering. He’s not like we think. All the bodhisattvas of Buddhism are smiling, if you look at Buddhists, they are all smiling, they’re at peace. They know the suffering of the world, my goodness, no one knows it better. But because one is able to transform that into something very profound and very deep, ultimately something good comes, that’s why they smile.
49) Many people are enthusiastic about a spiritual teacher, but often they don’t know him or her because they just saw them on big meetings or on the Internet. And then they are disappointed, because the negative, even corrupted elements of that teacher come out. Mingyur Rinpoche told us in one of his teachings that this was a big problem. How to deal with this disappointment and turn it into an opportunity for spiritual progress?
TP: Well, we mentioned that situation above with the case of less than ideal teachers. Before this age of media exposure, nobody talked about them. Firstly, it is very difficult to know what teachers are really like behind the scenes. Away from the light, away from the guru devotion. We have to be careful, we have to be cautious. Don’t believe what publicity is telling us, right? And so of course, we can also learn from imperfect teachers. We do not need to accept everything about them.
If one has followed a teacher for example, and then later one finds about their shadow side, then it’s good nonetheless to remember with gratitude all what one has learnt and gained from that teacher. After all, if he hadn’t given good teachings, you wouldn’t have stayed with them. So, despite everything else, at least they gave good teachings and helped us. So, as we say, we don’t have to throw the baby out with the bath water. We don’t have to disbelieve everything: indeed, they gave us good teachings, good help, so that was good. Thus, we can appreciate what we gained, but also be more careful next time, not to be too trusting until one is totally confident of next teacher’s integrity. But as I said, the important thing is not to discard everything, or get disillusioned with all the teachings. We take what is being useful, and are grateful, and the rest we can leave aside. What else can we do?
50) Well, in fact there are a lot of fake gurus and teachers. How to do the distinction?
TP: How can we know? If people knew it was a fake guru, they wouldn’t have any students. Some of the teachers with the most students are the ones who are the most suspect. But because they have charisma, therefore they attract. Even Hitler had many millions of great devotees who followed every word he said. And they were highly educated and intelligent people, but he had that certain quality, that certain charisma, and a message which people wanted to accept, and so they did. So, we have to be very careful.
In the tantric texts, it says that we should take up to twelve years before we accept a teacher. In this sense, we have to be careful, looking from all sides. Don’t just believe everything you’re told. My lama said that you have to wait for twenty years and then see what the students are like. After twenty years, look at their students, how are they? And then you can see if he was a good guru.
51) Are there any other criteria to distinguish the good gurus from the others?
TP: Well, not really. If it was so obvious then people wouldn’t be fooled. Obviously, the majority of teachers or gurus are bona fide. Most of them don’t make any great claim about themselves and they say: “oh I’m just like you, just practising the path, but I know a bit more, so I can teach you what I know.” I would definitely say that anyone who claims to be enlightened can’t go out the near store, because I’ve never heard any genuine teacher saying that they were enlightened. But you can see, look at their students, and look at the feeling around them. And then, if you make a mistake, then you make a mistake. But in general, most teachers are bona fide. It’s not like we have to suspect everyone. Still, if you do hear something about someone, then listen and investigate. Don’t ignore it, because it could be true.
52) Should we listen even if it is something negative about them?
TP: Yes, definitely, and then investigate. It could be somebody’s neurosis. But it could also be true. And if you hear it again and again, then I would definitely have my alarm system going on.
53) Some spiritual teachers say that if you don’t have the time to meditate, you have to create it. This formula is undoubtedly true on the absolute level, but on a relative level, doesn’t it risk making people feel guilty who are struggling to get a slightly better daily life from an ethical point of view, and have such responsibilities that it is really complicated for them to create this time?
TP: Well of course, this modern world is a very busy and complicated place. It’s not like it used to be, when people had endless time. But nowadays, many lamas, like Myngyur Rimpoche are encouraging people to do short but frequent sessions rather than long sessions. They say you don’t need to sit for an hour or two every day. Even five minutes or ten minutes, but throughout the day when you have a little time, is just as good. Ten minutes of shamatha practices or practising awareness meditation, or even just a few minutes of bringing yourself back to the breath, bringing yourself back to the mind, but you repeat it throughout the day during two to five minutes sessions. Try to maintain awareness throughout the day. This will transform the mind. And at the same time, it doesn’t prevent us from carrying out our tasks. It introduces clarity into our mind, and a sense of presence in our mind. That doesn’t take time. That just needs us to remember to bring ourselves back into the moment. The problem is that mostly, our minds wander. They wander in the past, in the future, they keep making up stories for us, or they’re very critical… However, to bring the mind back into the present moment with mindfulness and awareness, this doesn’t take time. It just requires us to remember to do it, bringing attention on what is happening right now. So, bringing the mind into the task which we are doing at this particular moment. This also makes our day much more efficient and much less stressful. We get stressed by the mind, when it is getting out of control. If we bring our mind back into the present moment and pay attention to what we’re doing in this moment, then we feel inwardly much more relaxed and at ease. This is also a very important practice.
Nowadays, many teachers are recognising that people do not have a vast amount of time in which to do a formal practice every day, and this is not necessary. It is about learning how to be aware, how to be present. And at the same time, to bring an open heart, to have a loving awareness, not just pure awareness, but accompanied with an open and kind heart. That’s more than enough.
54) But what can ten minutes change or transform in the mind?
TP: If we do many ten minutes, or many five minutes even, it can transform the mind. Better than doing an hour or two and then, the rest of the day having our mind wandering all over the place.
It is about training our mind how to be present, how to be aware, how to have that open spacious clarity. You don’t need to spend a long time doing it, but to do it again and again. You’re sitting at your computer… just take a few breaths, a few minutes just to be present… what is the mind doing in this moment, how is the mind, not just running around with it but bringing the attention back into the moment. If one does that as much as one remembers throughout the day, that trains the mind how to be conscious, how to be present. When we have time, we can do longer, but in reality, this is not the amount of time, but the amount of ability we have to transform our everyday life into our practice.
55) You said “Many people avoid thinking about death and are very afraid about it. But when one is not afraid of death, one is relieved of an immense burden in this very life” (p.29)
My question: When and how not to be afraid of death?
TP: First of all, one thing we have to remember is that one thing we can assume as certain about this life is death.